Evolution

[justified]

Originally Posted by peterout

Once again, I have to ask if you don't have all the answers, why is everyone else wrong in your eyes?

I am pretty sure that I never said you or she was wrong in regards to evolution. I said you were wrong about the KJV being the best Bible. I said you were not attacking evolution on the correct points and you should focus on these. I actually don't think I told my stance on this issue. The reason I focused on JennaBelle's post was because it was the last one on the thread.

Originally Posted by peterout

I don't think we do have common ground.

By that statement I meant that I am a confessing Christian and believe the main tenets of the Christian faith. If you don't believe yourself to be one then I apologize for assuming that you were.

Originally Posted by peterout

What is more important than being right is having grace for your brother and sister. In my fellowship, whether a person has been saved for five minutes or fifty years, their contribution is welcome in all our discussions. We always try and discern whether it is better to shut up when they say something wrong or add to what they say. We are more interested in their overal growth than one specific comment.

It doesn't seem to apply to your interactions on here with me. You seem to constantly take my posts out of context. If something is not clear to you then please ask for clarification and I will gladly give it.

Originally Posted by peterout

I have refrained from answering many posts because I have discerned that the writer places more value on being right than grace. I think your comment "I was trying to let you all know...." falls into that catagory.

Once again, I don't think I ever told you of my opinion in this matter, therefor how can I be concerned about being right. Side point yes I am concerned about being orthodox(having right belief). There are things that I believe that I am right on(the tenets of the Christian faith) that I will not agree that you could be correct if you disagree with me to a large degree. However, there are other things that it doesn't matter if I am right or wrong. I believe that this is one of those things. It doesn't matter if I am right or wrong how the world came into being. If the last post before I entered this discussion was for evolution, then I would have said my points from a different point of view. I don't think you have ever asked what I believe is the truth in this matter and just assumed because I argued against what was said that I disagree with it. For the record, I disagree with points of both sides of this debate. If you want a category to put me in I would most likely be considered an Old-Earth Creationist. I can expound further upon my personal beliefs if you would like.

Originally Posted by peterout

To let grace prevail, sometimes you can't let everyone know. An example is Jenna Belle. It is obvious to me that she is a very well informed young lady and can hold her own in a discussion. Whether she is word perfect or not is irrelevant to me. I would prefer to be part of her cheer squad and encourage her to keep flying the flag, which she does very well.

I believe you are right that she is a very well informed young lady. Seeing as that is so, that would mean that she is able to defend her points, and doesn't need you to attack my character and take my posts out of context. Similarly, she would have no problem in accepting my critique and trying to understand the points that were being made. I did not mean to make personal attacks on anyone here. If I did I apologize.

Originally Posted by peterout

I started this thread to inform people of the "Question Evolution" campaign. Whether they become involved is up to them. Needless to say, the campaign has been put together by respected scientists who happen to be Christians and they have raised 15 questions which evolutionists CANNOT ANSWER.

Evidence to hand already shows that university professors who are evolutionists CANNOT ANSWER these questions. Instead of going off on tangents about this, that and the other, I believe the best thing to do is to stick to what works and that is the 15 questions.

One does not have to have an I.Q. of 150 to ask these questions.

If you believe in evolution go right ahead. I will give my attention to those christian scientists who know far more than I do and are specialists in their field. I have a book written by 10 different christian scientists, many of whom have lectured at Havard and other ivy league universities and it is very clear from what they say that evolution is a total figment of man's imagination.

Firstly just because these questions are not answerable right now does not mean that they will not be in a year, five years, ten years... They may or may not become answerable. I believe that there are a lot more questions that a Creationist can't answer, especially because "God did it because He wanted" is not a satisfactory answer. That answer may very well be true. However, it does not suffice for people who are not of the same belief system as you are, especially when you are entering into a scientific discussion.

[peterout]

Some good news from the Creation Minisitries site which is sponsoring the "Question Evolution" Campaign.

Creation Ministries International is inoculating young people against Darwinism. Let's break the back of Darwinism!

In order to break the back of Darwinism, it is vital to inoculate young people against Darwinism, before they are indoctrinated by Darwinists through the schools and through the media.

Creationists, we have some exciting news and data to share with you!

The website of Creation Ministries International, which is Creation.com, percentage wise is reaching more young people than any other major creationist website as a percentage of its visitors. And based on tracking the web traffic data free web traffic data services, we also have reason to believe that the Question evolution! campaign and its various outreaches is increasing the percentage of young people visiting Creation.com. In addition, the web traffic for Creation.com is trending upward and our upcoming Question Evolution Campaign surge will even make things better.



It seems that given the right information, Christians are prepared to stand up for the truth.

[justified]

Peter, why do you continue to post these same questions, while refusing to answer mine? I do not believe evolution to explain the origin of life. However, evolution does explain how life developed once life was created. For my own personal beliefs I can answer each and everyone of those questions. Aristotle spoke about the 'unmoved mover.' I believe that to be the God of the Bible. He is what started the Big Bang and Life on this earth, and finely tuned the world to support life.
I ask that you answer the questions that I raised to you.
Please stop continually pointing to these questions because these questions were created to be used with atheists who believe evolution explains the origin of life. They do not disprove evolution nor do they really attack evolution in anyway. They really only deal with the origin of life. Which honestly I believe that, only someone with a belief of a 'unmoved mover' will be able to answer. For them they may just point to 'aliens' as that 'unmoved mover.' Which I can see being as philosophically defensible as our belief in God.

[peterout]

Justified you said...You are mistaken. Evolution just means biological change,

Justified, you said.....I am pretty sure that I never said you or she was wrong in regards to evolution.

Justified you said....By that statement I meant that I am a confessing Christian and believe the main tenets of the Christian faith.

Comment: We are not discussing the main tenets of the christian faith.

Justified, you said...It doesn't seem to apply to your interactions on here with me.

Comment: Despite the fact that I have chosen not to respond in kind in some cases as in "I have refrained from answering many posts because I have discerned that the writer places more value on being right than grace.

Justified said....I was trying to let you all know...."

And then said....Once again, I don't think I ever told you of my opinion in this matter,

Justified said ....I don't think you have ever asked what I believe is the truth in this matter and just assumed because I argued against what was said that I disagree with it.

Comment: From my uni days, if you argue against something it usually meant you disagreed with it.

Justified said...and doesn't need you to attack my character

Comment: Chracter means a distinctive trait, quality or attribute. Please let me know when I have attacked these.

Justified said....Firstly just because these questions are not answerable right now does not mean that they will not be in a year, five years, ten years... They may or may not become answerable.

Comment: The Question Evolution campaign is not dealing in a year, five years or ten years time. They are dealing in now so that is what they and I are addressing (with your permission).

[dreamergirl818]

MOD NOTE: This is a quick reminder: We are Christians on here. The Bible says "Let your conversation be as becommeth the gospel of Christ." Let us follow this scripture and act like Christians. No hostility in the posts. No saying that one person is or isn't a Christian. It is okay to disagree on a point; you don't have to hold it against a person if they hold a different view. It serves no purpose, and it certainly does not help you convince them of your point.

[justified]

Originally Posted by peterout

Justified you said...You are mistaken. Evolution just means biological change,

Justified, you said.....I am pretty sure that I never said you or she was wrong in regards to evolution.

Justified you said....By that statement I meant that I am a confessing Christian and believe the main tenets of the Christian faith.

Comment: We are not discussing the main tenets of the christian faith.

It is amazing how you seem to continue to take my posts out of context.
You point out that I was mistaken when I said that I had not said you or Jenna was wrong. The statement about Evolution served a bigger purpose it defined the term in the manner that I was going to be using it. So that you could understand further points that I was going to be making. Also it was a minor point. I was not saying that yours or her understanding of whether evolution was true or not. Which is actually what I meant when I said I never said you or she was wrong in regards to evolution.
However, then you bring a random remark made by me and tell me that is not part of the discussion. The statement you quoted from me was in response to this statement that you made in reference to one of my previous posts.

Originally Posted by peterout

I don't think we do have common ground.

I was just clarifying for you because you didn't seem to understand what I was talking about. I am well aware that we are not discussing a main tenet of the Christian faith.

Originally Posted by peterout

Justified, you said...It doesn't seem to apply to your interactions on here with me.

Comment: Despite the fact that I have chosen not to respond in kind in some cases as in "I have refrained from answering many posts because I have discerned that the writer places more value on being right than grace.

You actually have responded to every one of my posts. In my opinion you have not acted properly in your posts and have made comments with a warped view of what I am actually talking about. The reason that I comment on most every point in the post that I am responding to is that I want people to understand that I am not trying to take things out of context, and want to grasp the author's thoughts. However, you pick specific things out and do not seem to grasp the context of what is being talked about.

Originally Posted by peterout

Justified said....I was trying to let you all know...."

And then said....Once again, I don't think I ever told you of my opinion in this matter,

Justified said ....I don't think you have ever asked what I believe is the truth in this matter and just assumed because I argued against what was said that I disagree with it.
Comment: From my uni days, if you argue against something it usually meant you disagreed with it.

You don't know me. Often times in this forum I argue points that I disagree with because not many other people are willing to and discussions become really boring if everyone is saying yeah I agree with that. Also I do it in real life, because I want to discuss things. I am sorry that you have not been exposed to people who talk about things to sharpen understanding of a topic.

Originally Posted by peterout

Justified said...and doesn't need you to attack my character

Comment: Chracter means a distinctive trait, quality or attribute. Please let me know when I have attacked these.

I felt that you had attacked my character. I understand that may not have been your intention. When I bring that to your attention, instead of arguing with me the best approach is to apologize.

Originally Posted by peterout

Justified said....Firstly just because these questions are not answerable right now does not mean that they will not be in a year, five years, ten years... They may or may not become answerable.

Comment: The Question Evolution campaign is not dealing in a year, five years or ten years time. They are dealing in now so that is what they and I are addressing (with your permission).

That is a very short sighted goal. Those questions could become answerable in that time and then you will not have any understanding of the way in which Evolution is not enough on its own. I assure you that fossil record is the entirely wrong place to attack evolutionary theory. There is more evidence in the fossil record for evolution than there is against it.

Also, your entire argument is that these questions are not answerable by evolutionists.
However, you have failed to answer one question that I have given you. You seem to take Genesis 1 and 2 literally. Please explain how the creation stories are not contradictory? Specifically as it applies to the use of 'day'?
I know you don't want to respond the way that you think that I have. I am asking you to at least answer this one question. I don't care if you respond to anything else that I have in this post. Thanks.

[Zipster]

Moderator Note

I, personally, put high value on discussion and debate within Christianity under the idea that it sharpens both parties involved within the discussion, as long as the discussion remains focused, respectful and driven by mutual respect and love.

Unless I am mistaken, this topic is primarily about Evolution, compared and contrasted with Creationism and if Evolution can be a part of Christian theology. I believe that this is an important discussion, and one that is very relevant to The Church today.

If there is nothing constructive, edifying, or challenging to say concerning this topic, then do not post it. This is not a place to take jabs at people who disagree with your stance, to imply that someone else is not a Christian, or anything like that.

As Christians, we are to seek the truth. Even if we do not agree with the opposing view, the very least we should do is to work to understand the opposing view so that we may fairly represent it in discussions with other people; Straw man arguments are frowned upon in every circle.

So, Keep things On Topic, keep them mature, and keep the Love of Christ in your heart and mind as you discuss.

To facilitate the discussion - hopefully, in a healthy manner - I'm going to pose some questions for both sides:

Peter: Justified has asked you a question which you have all-but ignored: could you provide a clear answer to the presumed contradiction between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 in regards to "day?"

Justified: You have stated that your views are more in-line with Old Earth Creationism, could you elaborate on that perspective and why you hold to that view opposed to the two views that have been predominantly displayed?

Questions for all: To what extent is the Origins of Life/The Universe/Creation important? Will God damn an individual to hell for believing in theistic-evolution? Can you provide Biblical support either way?

If the Young-Earth Creationist view of Creation is correct, then what does that tell us about God?

If the Old-Earth Creationist view of Creation is correct, then what does that tell us about God?

If the Theistic-Evolutionary view of Creation is correct, then what does that tell us about God?

Do any of these insights into the Nature of God conflict with any idea about God that we presently have? How so?

Does such a conflict immediately eliminate the possibility of the perspective? Is it possible that the conflict is on your end, and not on the other perspectives?

In the long run, how much do you personally think it matters that we get the topic of origins correct? Why?

I think these are sufficient, fair, and balanced questions that any and everyone - no matter your views - can participate in and be edified from. Again, remember that we are all Christians here.

[justified]

Originally Posted by Zipster

Justified: You have stated that your views are more in-line with Old Earth Creationism, could you elaborate on that perspective and why you hold to that view opposed to the two views that have been predominantly displayed?

I am not exactly sure what you want me to elaborate on, but I will do my best.
I do not view the Creation Narrative in Genesis 1 and 2 as being literal 6 24-hour days. I believe in more a day=age understanding. I have tried to attach a graphic that depicts this. I took it from a power point presentation given at Asbury Theological Seminary by Dr. Thobaben. I cite that because he asked that if we recreate any of it that we give credit. One of the questions that is very fair to ask, and one that I have not determined my personal answer is: when does the Bible start to have literal meaning?
The reason I differ from theistic evolution is that I am not convinced that there would be such diversity of life forms in that amount of time if left only to natural means. So I believe that God created, and since that time species have changed biologically(evolved) to certain degrees. My understanding of theistic evolution is that God is like the watch maker. He set the parameters and provided the catalyst to get the reaction started. But then He lets everything evolve.
I have school work that I need to be doing, but I will answer the other questions later.

[peterout]

As is my wont, when I am not confident in my ability to do what the Lord wants me to do, I will withdraw and seek his advice for some clear direction.

I presented the Lord with this situation and asked "what do I do?" After a few days, the answer came.

I know that this is problematic for a lot of people who cannot grasp the idea that God talks to you directly, but in my fellowship this is standard practice and we encourage everyone to hear from the Lord themselves and not rely on others to get their leading and build their relationship with the Lord.

I started this thread to make people aware of the "Question Evolution" campaign that was being launched by Creation Ministries to combat the lies of the evolutionary movement.

They framed and asked 15 questions which evolutionists could not answer. This is the basis of the campaign and so far has proved to be successful as reports come in of simple christians asking these question of their professors who believe in evolution and who cannot answer them, thus proving that evolution is based on sand, not hard evidence.

After getting some guidance from the Lord, I have decided that the only aspects of evolution that I will discuss here is the 15 questions which is the point of this thread. It is not a general discussioin about evolution so those who want it to be, I would suggest that you start your own thread dealing with that topic.

I realise that I haver digressed previously so I am just as guilty as the next person, but as from now, only those posts relating to the 15 questions will be addressed by me here if needed.

As far as challenging the validity of the questions is concerned, that is not the point as CM have I believe heard from the Lord to approach the topic of evolution this way and through it to claim back ground lost to people who are determined to wipe out all knowledge of God.

It is evident to me that the enemy is winning the war of words in many areas as they talk in terms of rights, tolerance, love and equality all of which is based on fabrications as evidenced by the ad hominen attacks on those who would disagree with them, instead of using solid evidence to rebutt.

CM have done no more than use words in the form of 15 questions to strip satan of his power over people. A rather clever counter attack to say the least.

[Taserah]

Peter, I have been closely following this debate but up until now have had nothing to contribute but after reading your last post I feel it is time to intervene.

I am a first year university student. I am enrolled in History, English, Philosophy and Religion, all of which require that I read Christian theology as well as works on evolution. Regarding on whether or not I think evolution is true I am not sure yet. The Bible is not very clear on what is to be taken literally and what is to be taken figuratively. However, with my limited knowledge of evolutionary theory and my much more extensive knowledge of creationist theory I do not see why or how the two theories would not be compatible. Ever since the founding of Christianity philosophers, historians and other great thinkers alike have been trying to reconcile the division between rationalism and religion, Athens and Jerusalem. Aquinas, Augustus, Voltaire, Descartes and many others have come up with numerous theories to heal this division. It has been a source of countless divisions and schisms within the church and the scientific community. During the Enlightenment the theory of deism was created to yet again try to heal that division. What I don’t understand is why Christians and the scientific community alike think there has to be a division. Why can’t God be rationally thought about? Why can’t scientists have a little faith and understand that they can’t know everything? Why is it always science vs. God? My explanation is pride. I simply think that people believe they always have to be right and that quite often it is less about finding truth that just picking a side and doing anything to prove that your side is correct.

Now with all that said I will admit that evolution does introduce some discrepancies that could alter theology. It doesn’t have to; it just depends on how deeply one is devoted to the concepts of evolution and natural selection. I know Peter, that you wanted this thread to be about the 15 questions posed or you said you weren’t going to personally address posts. I am quite fine indeed with that decision on your part. I will mention those questions but many other topics as well. Everything is closely linked together and to not examine it all in its proper context is to not get a clear picture of what exactly we are dealing with. This problem goes much deeper than just evolutionary theory. The only reason it is such a huge controversy and that creationists believe they must challenge it is because it challenges ontological frameworks that have been existent in society since Christandom of the middle ages. In a way new thoughts such as evolution challenge the entire structure of western society for the last 15 centuries. A lot is at stake here and to simply dismiss evolution as coming from Satan or as against God is not fair. Those questions asked may be well thought out and articulated but whether they can be answered or not is not the real problem here. Why do they want to disprove evolution? Because it is challenging the ontological authority of Christianity. Why do evolutionists desperately want to answer questions such as those? Because those questions raise doubts about the rationality the scientific community has been trying to institutionalize since the Enlightenment. I’m not trying to give a philosophy/theology lecture, I just want people on here to realize what is actually be addressed and what is really at stake. The question of whether faith and reason are compatible is what is really at stake here. As you can see Peter, I will be acknowledging those questions but so much more as well. I’m interested in the seeking of truth and I hope that my post, as long winded and wordy as it is, will spark debate and help everyone gain knowledge and truth. If you feel I’m breaking away from what ought to be discussed I apologize but those questions alone do not do anything. The author may very well have felt led by God to create them but that justification alone is not going to promote truth. You said you wouldn’t answer posts that go off topic and that is totally fine with me if you don’t address mine. All I ask is that my brothers and sisters here on Anointed Youth do read it and that hopefully someone can think more deeply about this topic because of my response.

Right now for university I am reading Janet Browne’s Darwin’s Origins of Species. It is a reflective commentary on Darwin and his book An Origin of Species and a whole other long title that I don’t feel like typing here In her book she makes an interesting case for Darwin which is that Darwin in his first edition of his book never once addressed people or the origin of life. He tried very hard to avoid being associated with atheists and he made it known that he was not an atheist. Darwin was an agnostic as was very common for many people in Victorian England, especially scientists. This period was just following the Enlightenment and other intellectual revolutions such as the French Revolution and the American Revolution. People thought differently then as science became more developed and religious doctrine was seen with more skepticism. If you consider the historical context this makes sense. I’m not casting judgment on whether it was wrong or right, I’m merely stating that from a historical viewpoint it made sense. Darwin understood that his theories would challenge the church and he waited to publish his book because of it. However, he was a man devoted to science and he felt that his discovery was important to the furthering of scientific knowledge and that it needed to be available to the scientific community.

His findings posed several problems to the church. If animals evolved from simpler organisms they weren’t intelligently designed. If humans followed the same pattern then humans weren’t created in God’s own image. If this is true is there need of a God, does he even exist? If humans aren’t made in God’s own image is there a purpose to life? Do we have a responsibility to have morals or human decency? Darwin himself was aware of these problems and was frightened by the church’s reaction. However, he felt he owed a debt to the scientific community. Even then in 19th century Victorian England theologians began to find ways to fit God into the equation. Many of them did so quite successfully and those are the foundations of the same theories we find today that incorporate elements of evolution and creationism.

Once a theory like evolution is released to the world it can’t be taken back. Now the question is how Christians and scientists alike are going to deal with it. I think that Christians need to acknowledge that the debate is not between theories like evolution and creationism but is about trying to reconcile faith and reason. It all comes down to the question: is faith reasonable? I believe the answer is yes or I wouldn’t be a Christian. That being the case why does it matter if we hold different views on more scientific material? If we believe Jesus Christ was a real man who walked the earth and died for our sins because he loves us, and that God created this world because he too loves us doesn’t that in of itself make us Christians? Something for us all to consider in our daily walk with God is how much of our beliefs are actually Biblically based and how many are just religious dogma.

I know it may appear that I went very off topic with this response and I apologize for its length but I believe that the points I made are very important and crucial to a Christian understanding of the world. God bless you all and you may you continue to seek truth in all matters.