Creating people for hell

[Little princess]

This is something I've been struggling for many years. It is also something that one of my (non-Christian) friends has brought once angain to my attention. I am in desparate need of answers and explanations so if you've got any thoughts please let me know.

"Why would God create people who HE KNOWS will reject him and therefore go to hell?"

To follow the logic:
- God claims that he wishes no one to perish for eternity
- God is all knowing
- God knows everything about everyone before they are born
- God therefore knows every decision made by every person before they make it.*
- Therefore, if God KNOWS that "Joe Smith" will NOT be a Christian, then why would he still create him, knowing that he'll spend eternity in hell, if God wishes no one to perish?

I'm in desparate need of answers asap, please.

Clinging to Christ**,
Little Princess

*Yes, I realise people have free will, but even so, this doesn't change the fact that God still knows what they choose before they choose it - nothing surprises God

** Because sometimes that's all I can do.

[JesusPrincess]

Of course God doesn't want anyone to perish, but it's mans' decision what he does with his life. If man chooses to reject God, that's his decision, but since the day when Adam sinned, the choice is up to us how we want to live. It sounds like God is being very unfair, and maybe He is, but at the end of the day, it's mans' choice with what he wants to do with his life.

[Iceman]

I know the argument.

It's commonly referred to as predestination vs free will.

However you have made a presumption.

You have presumed that the timeline works on a type of cause and effect system. ie.

Because God can 'see the future' then the future must be locked in space time. But the mistake is that this is a paradox. God can only see the future, if the future is locked in space time.

Think of it instead in this way.

From this exact point in time, your timeline isn't straight. Instead it's an endless web of possibility branching out from each choice you make, or don't make. For each interaction you have with someone, a hundred different possible outcomes exist. Consider that within all these possible paths you could take. While God can see these paths, there is no reason to assume that in the infinately complex nature of free will, that they are predetermined. Thus God is actively trying to pull you to the one He made you for, and desires for you. However you have the choice. At each interval you can make a choice, and that may take you further from, or closer to God.

God does not control every action you do, though he does call to all people. In the end though, all people will choose what it is they want.

[Zipster]

Originally Posted by Iceman

Think of it instead in this way.

From this exact point in time, your timeline isn't straight. Instead it's an endless web of possibility branching out from each choice you make, or don't make. For each interaction you have with someone, a hundred different possible outcomes exist. Consider that within all these possible paths you could take. While God can see these paths, there is no reason to assume that in the infinately complex nature of free will, that they are predetermined. Thus God is actively trying to pull you to the one He made you for, and desires for you. However you have the choice. At each interval you can make a choice, and that may take you further from, or closer to God.

Sounds like Molinism - something that was condemned by the early church as a heretical teaching which denies God's omniscience.

Little Princess: What you have come upon is a debate that has been going on for centuries. The easiest thing you could do - if you are indeed able to - is to accept it as a mystery; How God's sovereignty and man's free will co-exist (if, indeed, they do) is very much a mystery.

If you choose to delve into it deeper, it can consume a good bit of energy.

I'd also recommend searching the forums - I know this is a topic that has been discussed before, and you very well may find good discussion, and insight within the other discussions.

The answer, however, that you will find on either side of the debate (Calvinism vs Non-Calvinism) isn't necessarily the most humanistic answers, nor are they very happy sounding.

I see it like this: Some must go to hell for Christians to realize what we're saved from; if no one were to go to Hell, then what is the point of salvation?

Also, it is for God's glory; God is glorified through his mercy, and his judgments. Those who have rejected the gospel will still glorify God by being objects of his judgment - a testament to all of eternity of the price of sin.

I do not believe that knowledge, however, demands ordination. Just because God knows someone will go to Hell doesn't mean he has made them for Hell: I might see from a higher vantage point a car accident is about to happen before it does, but in no way did I cause that accident (I know: It's not the perfect analogy).

I would encourage you to pray for wisdom on this subject.

[Iceman]

I'm not aiming for molinism. But from little I know of it, it doesn't deny God's omniscience, but adds what it calls Middle Knowledge. Which I think Calvin adapts on...It's been too long since I've studied it.
But if God creates people destined for an eternity of pain and suffering, I have an issue with calling that God loving.

[Geoffrey Lager]

meh on this topic. If helps you in some way, i always go back to the story about Pharaoh and the plagues, Exodus 7:3-5

"But i will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though i multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you. Then i will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment i will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. And the Egyptians will know that i am the Lord when i stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it."

I dont understand, but it looks like Pharaoh never had a chance from the git-go. i would agree and say you might want to put this one aside for later, at least for me it is an emotional and confusing thing to ponder.

[FrozenMushroom]

I would like to make it clear that this is my personal belief. Some of the points here start broad and get more direct at answering your question at the end.

Predestination is the concept that God creates people who are "determined before hand," or "oradined" (which is the meaning of the greek word used here, proorizo). There are 2 ways to look at this, if one is right, then the other is wrong; there is no inbetween or compromise. We are either predetermined and have no choice in whether we get saved or not, or we have a choice. If we have a choice we are not predetermined. There is no such thing as being predetermined and having a choice to be saved, how would you be predetermined if you had a choice? What is the point of free will if you are predetermined?

The first mistake here is thinking that God made each one of us individually. The only people God made were Adam and Eve. He gave them the option of freewill. They were created sin free and when they sinned the "great fall" happened. God can't make people who are sinners, they have to choose to sin. If He made people who were sinners that means He is reponsible and to blame for their sin, not the person. It would mean too that God made sin. This would be contrary to His nature. Sinfulness is the opposite of holiness, it is lawlessness ( 1 John 3:4). God is the author of the Law which is a reflection of His holy character (Exodus 20). Therefore, God cannot create that which is in direct violation of the Law. Sin didn't come from God. God created the conditions where free-will creatures would be able to make a choice between obedience and disobedience to God. This condition existed when God created an angel called Lucifer who was without sin yet, apparently, had free will. Lucifer chose to rebel against God and sin (Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezek. 28:13-15). Likewise, Adam and Eve, having been made by God without sin, listened to the devil and chose to sin against God (Gen 3). In both cases, God didn't cause them to sin (James 1:13), they made the choice to rebel against God. Once sin entered the world it spread to the rest of us (Rom 5:12). The conditions exist where we have a choice. In both these cases we see perfect conditions, conditions of absolute paradise. In both these cases the beings/people had free-will. They made the CHOICE to disobey God. God created the conditions but He didn't force them to make the choice. They chose to. If a parent tells a child to take out the trash and the child chooses not to, he has rebelled against his parents. But the parents aren't responsible for the actions of the child, the child is responsible for his own actions.

Predestionation would mean that we have no choice in anything we do. What would be the point of existence? If we exist and we don't have a choice in salvation then what is the point? What would be the point of anything we do? Why would we go out and make disciples of all nations (Matt 28:19)? Why would we receive the law which shows us we are sinners? Are we not here to bring glory to God and to bring as many people to Christ as possible before we are called home? If God is the one doing the choosing then we wouldn't be here, are existence here on earth we be pointless and meaningless. We wouldn't have a need to preach the Gospel to others. Freewill cannot exists amongst pre-determined conditions. For if everything we do is ordained by God then we are not making any choices. Predestination also means God has made sin and is responsible for people sinning. It means He made them sin, for if it wasn't their choice then how did they sin? If they didn't sin then they wouldn't go to hell. We have all sinned and fall short of the Glory of God (Rom 3:23), right? This shows that God made those who have been "predetermined" to go to hell sin. If they hadn't sinned, then they would be perfect and wouldn't go to hell. As explained earlier, this just isn't possible.

Choice is very clear in the Bible. Like mentioned earlier, it was the choice of Adam and Eve that brought sin into this world. We choose to rebel against God, God doesn't make anyone rebel against Him, He couldn't, it's contrary to His nature, His will, His holiness, everything about Him. The Bible makes it clear we have the choice to accept or deny Christ (John 3:16, Rom 10:9-10, Rom 1:16, just to name a few). This is seen all throughout both Testaments. We know that God wishes for everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-4, 2 Pet 3:9), but they have to make that choice, the choice to accept or to deny Christ is up to them.

Let me explain a concept. John 6:44 says "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day," (John 6:65 as well). This is seen in several spots in the Bible, and used as a case for predestination. I believe the calling or drawing Jesus refers to is about the calling or "knocking" of the Holy Spirit on a person (Rev 3:20), God wanting to enter. We all have the choice to accept or reject this. John 6:39 says "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." Christ won't loose anyone that has been given to Him. Who are those that are given? The ones who made the choice to accept Him. You see, i believe since we know the will of God is for no man to perish but everyone be saved, and that the Holy Spirit is at the door knocking to come in, the "all that He has given Me," means all the people that the Holy Spirit is trying to get into and does (therefore they accepted Christ), they now belong to Him. God wants all to be saved, so He gave everyone a way to be saved (Jesus), He sent the Holy Spirit out and that Spirit wants to get in, it's our choice. The ones given to Christ are the ones who accepted the calling. Who made the choice to have fellowship with God. God gives everyone the choice to accept to be a son of God, but only those who accept this are the ones given to Christ. Remember that the rules of the law are written on our hearts (Jer 31:33); in other words we have an innate sense of right of wrong. We choose to do wrong, we have to choose to suppress the feelings, the convictions of our wrong actions. After people do this long enough they no longer realize God's calling for them, they begin to not even be able to tell the diffrence between right or wrong.

God therefore knows every decision made by every person before they make it.* Therefore, if God KNOWS that "Joe Smith" will NOT be a Christian, then why would he still create him, knowing that he'll spend eternity in hell, if God wishes no one to perish?

Very true, but free-will is part of the answer. This also answers the question of "Why did God even create angels/humans in the first place if He knew they were going to sin?" God didn't want to, nor did He, make mindless robots. He made the angels, and then 2 people whom the rest of the people came from them. Thats all HE made. Sin entered the world when they fell. God didn't want mindless robots, which brings me into the tie-in point. God is love. Love is best seen through expression, giving. The Lord didn't want mindless robots, how could you express/show love to such beings? If all their actions were ordained, what would be the point? No matter what He did, their reactions would be systematic. Free-will gives us the opportunities of genuine love. When the Lord expresses His love to us we can show true thanks, compassion, and love in return. Due to free-will, each person can express their feelings in a different way. Without this free-will happiness would be ordained. There would be no sincerity in it. It wouldn't be true happiness, this kind of happiness can only come from a being with the ability to choose. However, freewill came with a downside (the possibility of sin) and due to some people in the beginning, they made a wrong choice and made it so much harder on the rest of us, even dooming some.

Yes, I realise people have free will, but even so, this doesn't change the fact that God still knows what they choose before they choose it - nothing surprises God

God does know what we choose before we choose it. But because of free-will and His divine nature He can't just stop those who don't choose Him from being created.

Look at it like this, when parents have children they know that their kids will eventually act in sinful and even harmful ways. Yet, that doesn't stop them from having children. Why? First of all, it is worth the risk of their rebellion to bring them into the world. Second, the nature of love is to give and by having children the parents can better express their love. Third, just because the children will sin and rebel doesn't mean they shouldn't exist. Fourth, children have their own wills and can freely choose to rebel. Knowing this parents all over the world still have children. You might still say "but why let people who are going to hell be created?" God is also a just and righteous God. It is not His fault sin entered the world and that those people made the choice they did. They are getting what they deserve for denying Jesus as the freedom for their sin. God is fair. Since He is just, righteous, fair, etc.. it would be contradictory to His holiness to take these people out of existence. He may know their choice, but remember, He wants everyone to be saved, and He isn't responsible for the choice they make, since He is just He cannot simply stop them from being created. He may know their choice, but no one is more heartbroken than He is for the choice they made. He doesn't want to do it, but He has to. He still uses these people to glorify Himself and benefit others though, so it's not to say they are without purpose. These people are the same people who might create medicine, create laws, protect us (i.e. military, police officers), invent things, all the way down to the smallest of things.

I essence I believe it coulda esscentially be summarized in that you can see that God had to create beings a certain way in order to actually express Himself. However in creating them this way there was a chance they could sin, but they had to be created in such a way. It isn't His fault they sinned but knowning they would sin He had to create a way to atone for it, Jesus. He wishes for everyone to be saved, but because of their nature they have to choose to be saved. In essence I believe it is because of the way we had to be created (with free-will) in order to glorify God. Remember that we were created for God's good pleasure and to glorify Him. Even people who are hellbound (as i showed in the previous paragraph) still bring glory to Him. He didn't want it to be done this way, but He can and does take bad things and use it for good. He doesn't want them to go to hell, but it was their choice and even knowning their choice He is just and fair. Ultimatley everything will bring glory to Him, purhaps not in it's original intended purpose though. I believe to understand all of this you have to understand why we had to be made with free-will, and understand as much as we can about God's righteousness. It is hard, but i think possible.

I've read this: "The Bible tells us that God is love and that He sacrificed His Son on our behalf. The greatest act of love is to sacrifice one's own life for another (John 15:13). In a very real sense, God has performed the greatest act of love in sacrificing Himself (Remember, Jesus is God in flesh - John 1:1,14). Since God is love and love sacrifices, God has now manifested the greatest love by dying for us. In this, God is glorified. But, without sin in the world, there would be no way to demonstrate the greatest act of love -- which is self-sacrifice. So, perhaps God allowed sin in the world so that He could demonstrate the greatest act of love."
While this does make a good deal of sense with what i wrote, it's important to note the concept of love needing to be expressed. Also, just because sin entered the world (and like stated before can still be used for God's glory), it doesn't mean those people had no choice, they made their choice and God is, amongst other things, a Holy and Just God.

However, for the believers we are predestined in this sense, we are to be conformed to the likeness of His Son. We know one day we will see Him face to face, and we will be changed to be like Christ, who we strive to be like now. In this sense, we are predestined.

I read these 2 articles after i typed this, they are a good, but deep read. They have some points that i didn't make here, as my approach was from a diffrent angle in hopes of making it easier for people to understand it.

How does God's sovereignty work together with free will?

How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?

After reading my post and these 2 links (assuming you do). One may come to the conclusion that some are in fact predestined to bring Glory to God (none are predestined to hell though), but others do have the choice to make. Which makes good sense. However you can't have full understanding without reading the 3. You won't understand 1 without the other. So it may be a long read all-togethor, but if it is bugging you so much you should truly read it. Remember this in all things, when we come to something we don't know or cant understand we fall back on what we do know. We know that God is just and fair. That He loves us. So we know in the end He is right in what He does.

On the topic of Pharoah and his heart being hardened it is important to see that 5 times he hardened his own heart, and 5 times God hardened his heart. Pharoah hardened his own heart several times. God hardened it as judgement (or in the hebrew "strengthened" or "confirmed"). Keep in mind as well that long before God had anything to do with Egypt, pharoah was a cruel, evil tyrant. He controlled most the known world and was viewed as God (or a God) by most. He was corrupt as can be. When it came to God hardening pharoah's heart is was because of judgement being brought upon pharoah. Notice too that even after plagues came upon egypt and pharoah had agreed to let them go that there was no true repentance. He told God to go away, he didn't repent while he had the opportunity. Then he would harden his own heart, so God would then strengthen that. Eventually it got to a point where pharoah was doomed. But it was his own fault. He had his chances as we can clearly see in the beginning. God gave pharoah increasingly severe warnings. Pharoah had hardened his heart, bringing judgement upon himself so that when he went to harden his own heart, God would as well. God used pharoahs continuing arrogance to bring glory upon Himself. Remember, we all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God, and since the wages of sin is death, God is just in doing this. He very well could've whiped Egypt off the map (and been just in doing so), sending the plagues was much more merciful. He was just in whatever He wanted to do to this evil man. That is why He is just in hardening pharoahs heart. Since we are all sinners, God is just in showing mercy on whomever He wants. To a man as evil, cruel, and barbaric as Pharoah, it is easy from the human standpoint to see why what happened to him is justified. God has mercy on everyone, some more than others, but i believe that pharoah had pushed God's mercy on him (not that he, or we, ever deserved any in the first place) to far. Pharoah had his chance, he made the wrong choice.

[Little princess]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply to me.

Yes, this is very emotionally-challenging time of my life right now but I do not feel able to just put it to the side (as I have done before). This is an issue which has and is hurting my walk with Christ and I feel that if I don't try and work through it then my faith may be destroyed.

I just need to remember that I'm not the first of God's people to go through times of doubt, confusion and emotional turmoil and I won't be the last person. Currently, I just need to try and hold on as I ride through the storm. Thanks once again for your comments - I have read through them all multiple times and do appreciate this. Thank you also in advance for your prayers.

Trying to hold onto Christ,
Little Princess

[rocky4square]

Originally Posted by FrozenMushroom

God does know what we choose before we choose it. But because of free-will and His divine nature He can't just stop those who don't choose Him from being created.

FrozenMushroom: Although I can see where you are coming from, I feel like there is an important difference between can't and won't. It's not that God can't stop those people from being created, it's that He does not do it.

[BaldJesus]

Okay, the idea of God creating people for Hell confuses me too.

People always talk about God having a plan for everyone.
But how does that plan fit in with free will?
And, I'm sorry, but I find it hard to trust in a plan that results in a lot of people winding up in Hell.